"The Old Man in the Cave"

"The Old Man in the Cave"

An old man in a cave guides nuclear-war survivors.

Stars John Anderson, James Coburn.
Original air date: November 8, 1963.

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I'm looking here at a collection of stories called "Microcosmic Tales" (DAW, 1980) that contains a story called "The Old Man" by Henry Slesar, which was copyrighted in 1962 by "The Diner's Club." (?)

It is essentially the same story. A post-war village guided by the wisdom of some old man in a castle on the hill. And it ends when some villagers break into the castle and kill the "monks" there, then the room of the castle where the "old man" lives and...

"Then they stopped, awe-struck, and stared at the strange bewildering complexity, the thing in the room that winked with a thousand eyes and murmured in the mysterious voice of machinery. It was helpless now, its programmers dead...Then they killed the old man, the computer. It didn't take long for everyone to die."

I can't remember if a story credit is given for this in "The Old Man in the Cave." Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks...

Yes, that's the story that the episode was based on, according to The Twilight Zone Companion. I don't know for a fact that Slesar was given on-screen credit for his story. He should have been, and I imagine that he was, but sometimes mistakes were made (for example, George Clayton Johnson was accidentally not given original story credit for "The Prime Mover").

The TZ episode "The Self-Improvement Of Salvadore Ross" was also based on a Slesar story with the same title.

He was.

This one wasn't bad at all. James Coburn was so arrogant, you wanted him to get what he deserved (I did, anyway).

I like it. I get a kick out of James and his character in this one. It's a part I would have liked to have played (if I had any acting chops, that is) given the opportunity. I gave it a 7.

okay episode.. can take it or leave it.

i didn't like the fact that the people of the village were so swayed. they were listening to the 'old man' and then a total stranger comes along, tells them what the want to hear and then follow him even though the 'old man' hasn't let them down yet. i don't know, i get the whole post war thing and i don't know how i would react in similar circumstances but i would hope i would be at least skeptical of a total stranger.
-ag

I think the idea here is that they are so desperate, hungry, frightened and frustrated they are willing to accept anyone or anything that might make their plight more bearable. It's the same situation that makes people turn to dictators - the people are just so desperate they are willing to accept something they otherwise wouldn't.
From our armchair perspective, we feel they should remain loyal to the old man but it would be different if we lived as they did, on the edge of existence.

Crown 85, I think your reading of this episode is right on the money. I also think the ep is undervalued (I ‘m the first voter here to give it a “10”). (SPOILER FOLLOWS)

I don’t share Zicree’s problem vis-à-vis the treatment of the computer as deity-like authority. And I don’t share his “suspension of logic” issue concerning the old clunker. If its creators were technologically advanced enough to build an all-knowing machine, they could have devised a way to keep it running forever.

From the questions that need answers department:



Now being the wife of a dermatologist I never make fun of people's imperfections, at least not in public. I was an old zit teen myself once. But wouldn't you think this gal would either excuse herself from shooting that day...have more make-up put on...or is this some sort of radioactivity poison like Beev suggested to me?

Oh and I give this ep a "6" but a 10+ on the zit scale.

Nice, Leen. Another fine contribution to the preservation of Zone history.

I move that this shot be included in the Dan Hollis Memorial Spittle Collection (currently housed in the "It's a Good Life" thread). Anyone second the motion?

How 'bout if we just put in a link to it?

Dan Hollis's spittle, by the way, can be viewed here.

I further move that in the interest of preserving the finest products of our photographic research, we create a new thread titled "The Dan Hollis Memorial Spittle Collection" in which all future photographic discoveries can me collected. Anyone second this motion?

How 'bout if we just put in a link to it?

Dan Hollis's spittle, by the way, can be viewed here.

Sure, go ahead, Steve. Do you want to post the pics there that Leen has already done, or do you want me to do it?

In how many episodes does Rod begin his intro with something like "Portrait of a frightened man" or "Portrait of a woman in trouble."* (A harbinger of things to come with "Night Gallery," maybe?) Imagine if Rod started this episode by saying: "Portrait of a woman with a zit on her nose." ("It's not just her unsightly acne that troubles her... no, it's also the aftermath of nuclear war, a legacy that humanity has left to itself....")

*That's intended as a rhetorical question, but if someone wants to check, that would be cool; if not, I'll get to it myself eventually.

Here’s what I propose. I’ll wait a day or two before proceeding so that others may weigh in.

I propose to create a new thread titled “The Dan Hollis Memorial Spittle Collection” where links to photographic discoveries (that’s photographic discoveries, not pornographic discoveries) previously posted in other threads will be included. Links only, so that we don’t waste space on the board duplicating photos. As new photographic discoveries come to light, new links will be added in the “Collection” thread. In this way, the collective photographic wisdom of the board will be preserved in one place.

I’ll take a stab at creating the initial links. On an ongoing basis, anyone can add a new link or request assistance in doing so.

Needless to say, this initiative involves keeping Leen on life support for as long as possible.

Whatever I can do to help. Just don't ask me to view all the eps again. If anyone has the counter number on their DVD players of a particular shot that would be very helpful.

Yeah, the "links only" idea sounds good to me, Steve. This way the discussions of the pictures can stay in the episode threads. My own hope about the episode threads has always been that someone could go to, say, the "Old Man In The Cave" thread and get as complete an "Old Man In The Cave" experience as possible, rather than having great "Old Man In the Cave" discussions that take place somewhere else on the board. Any reasonable way of helping this happen, such as your "links only" idea, is something of which I'm wholeheartedly in favor. (I say "reasonable" because I wouldn't want to be a control freak on that issue either, and hope I'm not already.)

Having read the Short story about 10 years after I first saw this episode, I prefer the episode. I really liked the short story - well written and imaginative. I feel the Zones interpretation was much more closer to the human condition. That being said, I would love to see the short story version of it done in 1/2 hour format to compare side by side as a visual rather than an mental theater.

7!

I have to agree with Zicree here…what's powering the computer and how did it get there? Perhaps that is part of the fun of this episode.

Maybe the computer was placed there by some higher power which is how it managed to forsee the future. Use your imagination, I guess...

My rating: 6

Spoilers,.....................





This is just reinforcement as to why John Anderson is my favorite supporting actor in the whole series.

He plays the part so well, even the rest of the cast is awesome.
James Coburn is delightfully hateful as well. Its so good to see him get whats coming.

I agree, we need to use our imagination as to how the computer is working. But whats to say it doesn't have a self sustaining battery.

And the final curtain, OMG, its absolutely chilling seeing the townsfolk laying on the ground dead. The pan of the people laying on the ground is one of the all-time great TZ moments IMO.

I would give alot of $$$ to see John Anderson in a few more TZ roles but alas, its not happening.

I am not sure what to rate this one but its threatening a 10 in my book.
Maybe after a little while passes I'll know how to vote.

Thank you and good night.
TZ DZ Fan

Just saw this one on sci-fi. It was okay, never would have expected what the old man was but the message wasn't very good. Rod mentions greed but I really couldn't find it. It had potential though.



Paul Radin gives this: 5/10

I thought the message was the strongest aspect of this show. Questioning faith is a very interesting theme, especially in this desperate setting.

***** SPOILER ALERT *****











Have mixed feelings about this one. I don't see how wanting to know the identity of who has been handing out survival advice for the last 10 years is a failure of faith. Their curiosity was natural.
However, I took great exception to their destruction of the computer when it had clearly been right on the money for a decade. They were destroying their only lifeline.
Perhaps the message should have been it's OK to question faith but if it has a proven success record, don't turn your back on it.

Not a fiasco, but a wee bit slow in places

*Spoilers*





I agree on the most part what Crown is saying. I do think they have the right to question their faith when it was a lie all along and they had no right to destroy their only chance but I still think that had a right to be pissed due to the fact they were made fools out of. They trusted this "old man's" judgment this whole time but it really isn't an old man... its a friggin computer so who the hell knows what kind of lies it has been telling them? Also the manipulation by the major was key to the fact that they destroy the comp so yeah.

I gave it a 6.66 because this episode is evil!

DEVIL EPISODE 6.66

The best part about this episode is when Jason almost gets hit in the head with a rock and and it makes his hair fly up in the air. Best scene ever.

A refreshing addition to the post-apocalyptic worlds of zone lore. Here we get to see life after war for an entire community. A clever sight gag is having the horse pull the car.

Goldsmith knows from the second he sees them that the soldiers are trouble. He views his community like Benteen – he feels like they are his responsibility. He immediately feels threatened by these outsiders. For he is their shepherd.

One of the reasons Goldsmith doesn’t trust them is that he fears that they are posers and not really an authority. Whether they are really under official orders or not is up to the viewer to decide. What could possibly sway a viewer to side with Goldsmith is the Major’s threat to hang him. Like a bully, he evens questions whether or not they should keep the Old Man alive. But he doesn’t actually do anything terrible and if you look at it from the Major’s point of view he’s not a bad guy or a sinner. This episode is not about the boring Good vs. Evil. It is about human nature. None of the characters have forced point of views. In fact, despite his bullying, the Major makes some sense and presents a logical perspective that the viewer can share in.

That brings me to the second reason Goldsmith doesn’t like the sight of the soldiers. They aren’t from around there. From someone who is just coming upon these people, listening to an invisible old man in a cave sounds as ridiculous as the other pocket of people that the Major found who howl at the moon. So frankly, any new face would question the outlandishness of Goldsmith’s community.

So the Major sees Goldsmith/Old Man as a dictator. Goldsmith sees the Major as a would-be dictator. And they both see themselves as liberators. They both fully believe they are good for the people’s overall well being.

The question becomes: will the people keep their faith or will they bite the apple of change? They know that the Old Man in the Cave has not let them down; by evidence of their lives. But they’re not exactly enamored with their current President either. Humans are equipped with curiosity and they had to see for themselves. All they needed was one voice to edge them on, and that voice was the Major. They certainly had enough time to know what life was like under the rule of the Old Man. They weren’t exactly the happiest campers but they were alive. But after ten full years, it was reasonable for them to opt for something different. Sooner or later, Adam is going to go for the apple. It’s there. They knew what life was like for the last ten years. They simply had to ask themselves, “Is this it?”

Poisoned or not, it seems to me that trying to food was a necessity for these people. It’s one thing to stay alive; it’s quite another to truly live. These people were indeed alive under the guidance of the Old Man in the Cave, but they were also his prisoners. And I think another human instinct is tapped into here. Some people would rather die than be caged up and told what to eat and when they can eat it. As far as I can tell, that one day of “living” again may have been worth it.

A little cave with a metallic impenetrable door and an “Old Man” who lives inside is odd even amongst Twilight Zone tradition. But it is interesting to see the tug-of-war the people have with their faith. When the Major questions the Old Man, they listen. But when they see their prophet make a fool of the soldiers with the door not even being scratched; they side with the Old Man again. They laugh at the soldiers because it makes them feel better; not only for that moment, but for the sake of the past ten years. They don’t want to be told they’ve been living a lie.

The Major then offered them change with proof. They ate the food and nothing happened. This not only coincides with an inner desire for change, but also mocks their existence for the last ten years. They put their faith in Goldsmith and the Old Man and they see that that trust may have been broken. Feeling betrayed is perfectly human of them.

Goldsmith asks the Major if he has any idea of what he has led into their village; death. The Major says that he let in happiness. The truth is that both men are correct. Yes they will die, but at least they’ll die happy. The people are actually enthusiastic for the first time in years when they trek up to the cave at the end. When the villagers call Goldsmith on this, he defends himself by saying that they are merely alive to keep our race going. Again, a tall order for a civilization of spoils.

I agree with TZ DZ Fan, one of my favorite Zone moments is the pan of dead bodies lying on the streets at the end.

Goldsmith, the lone believer, has made his point. To have faith in the Old Man was to survive. The problem is most humans aren’t wired that way. The meek shall inherit the earth.

Goldsmith says that the door to the cave has never been opened to his knowledge. This is a confession that he has never seen the computer himself. But that was just a cover story. At the end, we learn that he obviously has seen the computer before.

He knew all along that the Old Man was a computer. Why did he trust it? Could it be that he had something to do with its creation? He did know how to open the door. Did he come across that button by accident or did he put it there? If this is so, it would make Goldsmith’s unrelenting faith less poignant. He was never in the position that the others were. They had to believe on blind faith – oh well, test failed. He however, knew the Old Man’s real identity. It’s like Moses, who sees God, therefore believes in him.

If Goldsmith made the machine, he was playing God for better or for worse. But he also would have had a personal stake in the success of the machine. If he programmed the computer, his crowing achievement; watching the people destroy it would be like watching his neighbors destroy his own child. He did seem more interested in the computer than his own neighbors.

I also wonder about the lack of children seen. Could the radiation have anything to do with this? Or did they just not want to raise a child in their situation. Most of them were older anyway; so not to get too pessimistic about it, but I wonder what Goldsmith’s vision of the future really was. Did he give it as much thought as he says, or did he not look past his own life? These rants aside, I don’t believe that the episode is meant to incriminate Goldsmith.

My Score: 10 / 10
http://www.scifi-universe.com/upload/dossi...ilight/127G.jpg

Excellent review as always, Mr. G. The question about this episode that keeps nagging me is why Goldsmith had to maintain this "Old Man" charade. Why couldn't he have just told his fellow villagers ten years earlier that a computer was present with far better capability to provide the data to keep them alive than any other means around? Were computers perhaps responsible for the warfare that led to their current state, meaning that the villagers want nothing to do with them?

Interesting theory, Dan.

The only reason I can think of maintaining such a charade is that Goldsmith did not trust how the people would react receiving such orders from anyone. It is easier to trust what seems ominous. So, by having an invisible man in the cave, perhaps his words would hold more meaning. He wanted to rely on their primal need to believe. It is after times of disaster that people tend to get more religious.

Goldsmith never had to be directly accountable for what message came from the cave. If the villagers didn’t like it, Goldsmith was free of the ridicule. He was, after all, just a man. Instead, he creates a holy figure in the old hermit. The ominous notes from the cave were reliable, so the legend of the Old Man began to grow.

to answer an earlier question, the reason that there were no kids around is that kids are never victims in TZ/NG. one possible exception is 'Big Surprise" from Night Gallery (which, if true, would make for possibly the most disturbing thing ever on tv), but the ending is left to interpretation.

This is one of Serling few forays into religion. For a much better episode, I would recommend "The Miracle at Camafeo" of Night Gallery. This episode, however, is so full of unlikely events and leaves the viewer to assume so much that I wanted to throw rotten tomatoes at the tv screen.

Here's the biggest 'what the..' moment for me. The villagers do not know with absoulute certainty or absolute uncertainty that the food is tainted. If they were a smart group, and had deducted that the food was, in all likelihood, not tainted, they would still be foolish to say that they are 100.00 positive it's fine. And when you're talking about a life and death situation, you don't even take the slightest chances. But here's what baffles me. Instead of having one villager test the food out and find out it's effect, they all eat it: with the predicatable result. yeargh.

Here's another baffilng mystery: Upon learning what the old man in the cave actually is, they take their years of pent up frustration out on the machine. What? Unless this is some type of supercomputer with the ability to test food samples (which is possible given TZ's supernatural/fantasy bent), the computer has no idea. And that these type of computers don't even exist today, 45 years later, makes for a very unlikely event. So what you have is that the old man is like every other computer in this regard: it's quality of output depends on its quality of input. And the input in this case is Goldsmith.

So how does Goldsmith know the food is tainted? Even if he does know for certainty, why not just tell the villagers (and cut out the middleman that is the old man in the cave)? I'll tell you why: because he wants control of the group, in a way reminiscent of the guy in "On Thursday we leave for home" (I'm terrible at remembering character names). If he wans't seeking control, he would just tell the villagers himself that the food is bad, and if one of them disbelieved them, they would quickly die and that would be that. But that wouldn't make Goldsmith the leader, so he has to create this fictional old man in the cave to obtain control over this group.

And even if the old man was actually an old man, how does he know the food is tainted? He apparently never comes out of the infernal cave, and its also believed that Goldsmith has never seen him either, so just how exactly would an old man who never sees the light of day know.

I think Rod was trying to draw a parallel to that one shouldn't question their faith. But here, we're talking about the questoning of a machine. And, given the circumstances, can one really blame the vilagers for questioning?

I must disagree with the "On Thursday We Leave For Home" parallel.
I feel that Goldsmith was geniunely trying to help and do what he could for the community in an effort to keep them healthy. He did not have a personal, self-centered agenda.

To me, this felt like a remake of On Thursday We Leave for Home.

**Possible for "The Prisoner"**

I also get the feeling that Patrick Mcgoohan may have borrowed elements from the conclusion of this episode and used it for his own conclusion of The Prisoner.

End

for "On Thursday We Leave for Home"
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I agree with some of what you've just said beacuse it has the same basic plot: The leader of a group of humans who he has kept alive for years is 'overthrown' by outsiders who promise a better life, and in the end the original leader is the last man there.
*
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end

However, as Crown said, I think that the reasons for that leader of the group of humans for his actions were different.

I'd say it was a good comparison.

The year is given as 1974, and it is supposed to be "ten years after the bomb". This means that modern civilization ended in 1964. Now, did a computer as sophisticated as the one in this episode really exist in 1964?

Holy crap! Nice catch, Todd!

On second thought: Maybe, in the world of this episode, the government had secretly acquired enough knowledge to build such a super-duper-computer, and they put it in the cave so it would be safe from future nuclear war.

(In fact, maybe the super-duper-computer predicted the nuclear war, and the government moved it to the cave afterward, or built a new copy, for future survivors of that war.)

Holy crap! Nice catch, Todd!

On second thought: Maybe, in the world of this episode, the government had secretly acquired enough knowledge to build such a super-duper-computer, and they put it in the cave so it would be safe from future nuclear war.

(In fact, maybe the super-duper-computer predicted the nuclear war, and the government moved it to the cave afterward, or built a new copy, for future survivors of that war.)

And in either of thoses scenarios, it's possible that Goldsmith was one of the people in charge of the computer. It would explain how he knew about it, and how to run it.

You know who would have liked this? Dostoyevsky!

This episode contained a lot of Dostoyevsky's anti-Western Enlightenment worldview.

It is precisely this that Zicree did not like.

Zicree indicates that he does not like the episode because SPOILER the townsfolk's rejection and destruction of the computer is treated as a bad act, when in fact, to Zicree, it is a laudable expression of their will for self-determination and democracy.

Zicree sounds something like Rousseau. Zicree's mind is such a product of Enlightenment thought that he cannot understand the concept of faithlessness. When you have an established god (here, a computer, which is a statement, perhaps, that the only kind of god that modern man can understand would be such a machine [or else it's just a plot device so that this story does not devolve into mere allegory]) you should listen to him and accept his authority without question. Self-determination and democracy don't make a whole lot of sense, or are simply not useful, when you have a perfect authority like a god.

Zicree believes that this sort of submission to the god robs the individual of his humanity. Dostoyevsky and Islamic thinkers would contend that, instead, the voluntary act of submission to the greater mind/spirit/deity is precisely what shows humanity.

To remain in rebellion is the great sin.

This whole thing is played out nicely in this episode, with Goldsmith in the role of priest who shows his flock that submitting to revealed truth keeps them alive. Maj. French represents the Rousseau type (funny how his name is "French", given that the most radically secular of all these Enlightment thinkers were French) who wants the masses to shake off their shackles and their ignorance, determine their own fate, and experience freedom. That French is preaching this, but is basically out for power, reveals the conceit/understanding of Dostoyevsky that behind all this radical and secular talk is just a power grab any way.

What makes it even more like Dostoyevsky is Goldsmith's dismissal of French and his troops as outsiders and strangers. Dostoyevsky always took this tack with westernizers in Russia, saying that Russians should ignore the Enlightenment and Western thought generally, as "those people just don't understand Russia." Goldsmith is defending a small and particular society against the generalizing ideological threat of French and his rantings about freedom. Goldsmith wishes to maintain the organic status quo and defend against atomization.

BUT NONE OF THIS GARBAGE IS WHY I LIKE THE EPISODE. What's really neat about it is the horse-drawn Jaguar opening scene and the Jonestown closing scene. That's what makes this one a classic. The story is thoughtful, but the staging and the visuals make this one sing.